John of AllFaith is Multiplying!

Hmmm....fascinating read. Makes sense. In fact it sure puts some of these 'churches' spending habits in a clear light. And it doesn't look very spiritual to me....LMAO! Where did'ja get that pix??? LuV it!

P.P.S. Plz, plz John will you vote for my sis's pix on this page? It's good works, ya know....LOL! Later. Link: http://www.picture.com/voteforme/photovote1.asp?PID=2111164

Hi Zenav,
I gave her photo a 10 ;-)

I don't honestly know where that pic (on this entry) came from. It was one of the ones sitting in my graphics folder that I came across while transitioning my 2 websites to their new server.

As for taxing the churches...

I support the first Ten Amendments to the US Constitution that specifically states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The government does not have the Constitutional right to tax the churches or otherwise interfere with the free practice of religion. If the tax exempt laws are removed (and I expect they will be eventually if the country lasts that long) countless churches will have to shut down. This would be a direct violation of the first amendment... not that that stops the government these days...

For instance the requirement that protesters must remain in so-called free speech zones is a clear violation of this amendment. The fact that I have been arrested several times for protesting over the years is a violation of these amendments. The letters that countless pastors have received threatening them against opposing the US wars of terrorism against the Muslim world is another direct violation. Nine of the Ten Amendments are being severely trashed by the 20 so far year long Bush/Clinton dynasty (the one that is not to my knowledge is the one prohibiting the stationing of troops in our homes. Once the wars come to our streets that one will go too of course. These people could not less what the Constitution says.

As US/NAU Dictator Bush said in '05:

"I don't give a goddamn," Bush retorted. "I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way."

"Mr. President," one aide in the meeting said. "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution."

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

Source: http://www.rense.com/general69/paper.htm and elsewhere.

I do agree though that many of the mega-churches are taking unfair advantage of this right and that their actions have long led to a backlash against the First Amendment protections enjoyed by churches. I would however totally oppose further violating the First Amendment in this way.

Yes John. That's what I meant. It's becoming quite clear that some of the big corporate churches are being used as a cover for some rich men to evade their taxes on non-religious business purposes. And in other places in America our Constitutuion is being used against us. It must make the traitors and crooks very proud...

Thanks John, Yes we are a Bible Believing Church that loves the LORD, and we enjoy doing His work. By Preaching, and Teaching and Helping, We believe that is the what the Bible teaches. We welcome ever one, The saved, the lost People who do not believe as we do are welcome.

Hi Zenav,
True and very sad.
We must be careful "not to throw the baby out with the bath water" though.

Agreed Jaded Lady,
Thanks as always!

A poster commented the following in my guest book about this entry.

chasmarv wrote today at 12:31 PM
John- You are correct that the new covenant church should not tithe. You are wrong about who must
tithe in the old covenant and it was only farmers and heardsmen. Dr Russell Kelly the author of the
book SHOULD THE CHURCH TEACH TITHING A TABOO DOCTRINE AND his web page
shouldthechurchteachtithing and
CHASMARV@MULTIPLE.COM will be featured
on CBS march 2 from 9:00 until 10:30 against the false doctrine of tithing. Tune in.

My reply:

johnofallfaith
edit delete reply
johnofallfaith wrote today at 3:18 PM
You would need to present some scriptural support for this point Chasmarv. I invite you to do so on that blog entry.

II Chron. 31:5 tells us for instance,
"And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly."

II Chron. 31:6: And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.

These people were neither farmers not heardsmen. They purchased the animals and fruit of the fields to offer at the temple as their tithes. They also offered their gold and silver etc. to be used (melted down etc.) in the temple. IE "the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps." One doesn't lay sheep down in heaps.

The early Hebrews were people of the land. Animal and grain sacrifices were required of them all, regardless of their occupation.

This is part of what so angered Master Y'shua when he came to the Temple and saw the money changers. The people were going to the Temple to worship HaShem and were being overcharged for their sacrificial (ie tithe-based) animal purchases.

Matt 21:10 And when he [Master Y'shua] was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

There are a great many such verses that disagree with your point. It sounds to me as though all things the Jews "bring in" they are to tithe on.

Also, I wouldn't call tithing taboo, it is simply inapplicable for Noahides as I explain in this piece.

Thanks for sharing your views and again I invite you to do so again in that blog entry: http://johnofallfaith.multiply.com/journal/item/688/A_Question_About_Tithing

I'll include this discussion there as well should you like to discuss this further.

Thanks for sharing your views!
Maranatha!

chasmarv,
Also, I did a bit of research and found the following Q&A with a rabbi. Hos decision: "...it is a mitzvah (commandment) from the Torah for every Jew -- whether impoverished or wealthy -- to give ten percent of his income to charity...."

When a Pastor Demands Charity

Question:

Dear Rabbi,

I was watching a television evangelist one Sunday, and something he said really struck me. According to him, unless people pay tithes they will suffer. Actually his words were that they would "get their butts kicked by life." I was horrified, Rabbi. Would you tell me what Judaism teaches about tithing and its purpose.

Thank you.

Answer:

It is a mitzvah (commandment) from the Torah for every Jew -- whether impoverished or wealthy -- to give ten percent of his income to charity. This act of giving alms to the poor is held in high esteem by the Jewish people. Moreover, the Bible teaches us that this mitzvah acts as an atonement for sin. This message is declared to Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Daniel (4:241) and is the central theme of the opening message of the Book of Isaiah.

In the beginning of the Book of Isaiah, the prophet declares how alms to the poor and downtrodden expiates man's iniquities. The first chapter of Isaiah begins with a harsh condemnation of the nation of Israel. Few chapters in the Bible are as brutally critical of the Jewish people as Isaiah is in the beginning of his first chapter. In the 16th verse, however, the prophet almost unexpectedly soothes his wayward nation by teaching them both the essence of atonement and the way to achieve it. He assures the nation of Israel that if they turn from their sinful ways and care for the downtrodden, their sins will be forgiven. Isaiah's message, like that of the other Jewish prophets, stands in stark contrast to the declaration in the Book of Hebrews that "without the shedding of blood there is no atonement."2

As an aside, I find this Christian pastor's message that those who fail to tithe will "suffer" to be rather puzzling. According to mainline Protestant theology, salvation cannot be achieved through any form of "works" or deeds. Tithing would certainly fall into this category of works. There is little doubt that this church leader is attempting to instill fear within the congregation in order to secure some rather plump offerings.

Sincerely yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer (source: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/charity.html)